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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

diesel cold starting

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KEH

01-05-2008 06:58:32




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Might be a subject for discussion now that winter has come.

Some early diesel tractors, such as the 4 cyl Fergueson 35, used glow plugs. Shortly they were replaced by the 3cyl Perkins direct injection diesel which had a good reputation for starting in cold weather. Don't know if it had any other cold start aids.

Early IHC diesels started on gas, then switched to diesel after warming up. Their disadvantage was that the head design which allowed this was complicated, expensive, and probably no longer in production.

Many early diesels used a gasoline pony motor to start the diesel. Since a main part of starting a diesel is getting the motor to spin fast, the pony motor would hold up to turning the diesel better than an electric starter. Procedure for starting my cousins old D 7 Cat is to get the diesel spinning good, then spray a little ether.

Saw a neighbor start an 8000 Ford cold and it had a ether can in a fixture on the dash to inject ether.

Other Fords have a manifold heater which heats the air in the intake manifold. The Long tractor I have has this system and I have encouraged the process by using an electric heat gun to warm the manifold.

Kubotas that I am familar with use glow plugs and don't have the direct injection design. Not sure why they don't use direct injection on a farm tractor since the additional pinging noise is not such an isse on farm tractors. Some other Asian tractors use this system also.

For curiosity, I would like to know the cold start systems on later tractors, such as the 70's and 80's IHs, JDs, and ACs. I'm also curious about cold start aids on present day tractors. I'm told that some new tractors use the common rail injection system. Is cold starting any better on them?

KEH

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Mike (WA)

01-06-2008 09:14:12




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
Another couple of tricks- If you have a manifold pre-heater, run the pre-heat, then turn over for 5-10 seconds with the fuel shut off. Preheat again, start turning over with fuel off, then while still turning over, turn on the fuel. This gets warm air through the cylinders without flooding with fuel, and gets the oil circulating as well. Disadvantage- your battery better be in pretty good shape.

If you don't have preheat or glowplugs, preheat the manifold with a propane torch. If you have a petcock on the manifold, (many IHs do), open it up, and when you have preheated the manifold, hold the torch to the open petcock when you start cranking. The vacuum will suck the flame out, and will also suck propane through the hole, which works as well or better than ether as a starting aid.

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buickanddeere

01-05-2008 20:32:25




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
Block heater and oil pan heater or synthetic lube.



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oj

01-05-2008 15:16:49




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
We had an old Ford 3000 diesel years ago that the engine was getting worn out on, to start it in cold weather we took the air intake pipe off the manifold, and stuffed a lighted rag that had been dipped in diesel into the manifold and then turned the starter key, worked every time. Mates Dodge diesel had flat batteries a couple of weeks ago about -30f outside , and we had no power source close by, so jumper cable to the dodge from another truck, and small propane torch (like the ones used for soldering) into the intake manifold (took the rubber hose off at the manifold) let torch run for half a minute fired first flick of the key.

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Steven f/AZ

01-05-2008 14:32:58




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to JT, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
Dad talks quite often about taking a pan of coals out to set under the generator so they could get it started to charge the glass batteries so they could listen to the radio and have a light on at night... I'm sure they did the same with the old cars and tractors as well.



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Jerry/MT

01-05-2008 14:07:57




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
My "82 Ford 4610 use a Thermostart. It dribbles fuel( stored in a tube from the return line) on a heated heated element which either ignites or just vaporizes to aid starting.



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KEH

01-05-2008 13:24:21




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  

Interesting comments. I'll pass on the D 7 stories to my cousin with the D 7. Appreciate the info on the later models.

I've probably told this before, but when I was young I remember my father taking hot coals and putting them under the crankcase of the Fordson F to heat up the oil enough to use the hand crank. Put some old tin around it to channel the heat up. Since that tractor started on gas and then ran on kerosene and that fuel was there over the motor that probably was not a good idea but he got away with it.

KEH

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Russ from MN

01-05-2008 10:14:47




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
We have a JD 4600 up north that seems to be a very good starter, although I always plug it in if its close to zero because I feel it extends the life of everything. Before we bought it the dealer they will start down to at least -15 F with no help. When I was young my Dad had a 350 dozer cat that would start down to -30 F with a little ether but no heat.



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Billy NY

01-05-2008 10:09:10




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
You mentioned one of my favorite old pieces of iron the D7.

Another advantage to the starting engine is that you can turn the diesel over, without too much difficulty even in the coldest of temperatures because of the compression lever. While you are spinning the diesel, the coolant gets warmed up by the starting engine, you get hot air from the starting engine exhaust into the diesel's intake manifold, and you are circulating crankcase oil in the diesel, waiting until you see pressure registering on the gauge.

The key to it is to make sure that starting engine is in good working order, good compression, clean carb, fuel supply, and ignition. Magneto firing a hot spark, plenty of fuel coming into the carb bowl, motor in decent shape with good compression, they will fire off on a hand crank, mine still does, although the electric starter certainly is the preference for cold weather starting a pony motor. If the diesel has decent compression, and no other fuel related problems it'll fire easily after some spin time, I've never had to use ether on mine. Some people regard those old starting engines as a royal pain in the @ss, and they can be if you don't take care of them. I would enjoy hearing how a direct electric start would function on a 0 deg day, for one of these old technology diesels, the starting engine wins hands down in my opinion

A few years ago, one of my hockey buddies parked his mighty brand new chevy 4x4 on a sideslope in 3 + feet of snow, it was between 0-10 degrees F that day. Obviously a bad choice, plenty of flat ground to park on, not sure what the deal was, but there was no getting out. We had a nice area of ice cleared, say 18-24" thick, so I told him he's going to have to get a running start from the ice to have a shot at making it, too much snow, too much slope. Well, time to fire up the ole Cat, it's now dark, the pony needed some work, had not gotten to it yet, had to change the oil in it etc. so it took awhile, then it's got weak spark on one cylinder, but eventually that evening, I got that pony to fire on both and running strong enough to turn the diesel, the latter of which almost did not happen, and he would have paid heavily for a wrecker, listened to some flak from his wife etc. Well I just let that pony do it's thing, and tried the compression lever with the 2 spd trans in Low, and it just wanted to bog right down and out, so it took some fiddling around, back and forth, you usually can't and are probably not supposed to fire the diesel while the starting engine is in low gear, (though mine will fire in low, can't do that, it will overspeed the pony). The diesel engine is tight with low hours since new, so it's got excellent compression and is hard to spin in the cold. Eventually I got it to turn in high gear, with compression on, pulled up the throttle lever and one cylinder starts popping, then 2 then all 4 with some nice white plumes/smoke rings of unburnt diesel, which cleared quickly, then all 4 were firing smoothly. I pushed a path down to the ice and boy is a 7A blade (12 ft angle blade) nice for pushing snow, backed down to the edge, and hooked a line to his truck, pulled him up the hill, almost slid back down into him when making the turn around to get out of his way, now 10Pm, what a night, but one thing that I think made the difference was that starting engine, hard to believe how a direct electric start would have been able to get that diesel to fire in those temperatures, the 20 something HP starting engine had all could do to make it happen, and they used it on the D8 as well, which was the same diesel motor, but 2 more cylinders to turn. Models that came out years later, whereas the engine technology changed them for the better, direct electric start probably began to improve drastically, but for these old slow turning, lower compression naturally aspirated diesels like in the old Cats, a starting engine really seems to be what you need in bitter cold.

When I was a kid, my father had one on the farm and a blizzard brought 4 feet of snow, '71 '72 I forget, was so bad it closed the state highway here, and his (which I still have) old D7 started up on a bitter cold day, the town asked him if he could help clear the road, was an emergency, the snow drifted into the rock cut pass the road went through, they could not break through it and everything else was bogged down or stuck, the state crews included. That old D7 cleared a couple miles of road in short order, open station, he went right through that big ole drift, some years ago I found the receipt for the work done, I think they paid him $60 for doing this.

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flying belgian

01-05-2008 09:15:04




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
If weatherman forcasts cold temps for later in the week, I have to use eather to start my 4230 JD today. I heard on later series JD moved piston rings closer to top of piston and that makes them start better.



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Texasmark

01-05-2008 08:41:29




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
My Fergie 35 and '65 and above Fords use a cute little critter. It is a combination of diesel and electric current. You go to the warmup mode (ignition switch position or separate button) and current flows through the coil causing it to glow red hot. The heat forces a plug off it's seat and diesel dribbles out on top of this red hot wire.

You guessed it, you start a fire in your intake manifold, but it works, works good, and doesn't take very long.

On my pre'65 4 cyl they use a pair of regular glow plugs in the intake manifold which aren't as effective.

Best thing, however, is high compression and high rpms.

My deeres used ether, but the dispenser has long bit the dust. But with good compression, fast starting rpm's caused by big batteries with short fat cables with clean terminals, and Texas' relatively mild winters, I can start them without any aids.

My 2c,

Mark

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Dave H (MI)

01-05-2008 08:10:55




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
Ford utilities of the late 80's and 90's (10 and 20 series) used glow plugs.



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georgeky

01-05-2008 12:50:33




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-05-2008 08:10:55  
Dave, where did you ever see a 10 series Ford with glow plugs? I have had several Ford tractors over the years and none of them had glow plugs. The 3000's we had in the early 70's along with a 5000,7000, 4610,5610 and the 7610 I bought new in 94 use a maniflod heater, and not glow plugs. Also have block heaters in them



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jdemaris

01-05-2008 08:10:38




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
Many of the old diesels with electric starters (instead of pony motors) used hand-pumped fuel primers along with glow plugs - and they worked pretty good when setup properly. Deere had them on the 1010s and 2010s and they would start pretty good when all was right. My Allis Chalmers HD6 with a Buda diesel has the hand fuel primer as well as an ether injector.

Many later Deeres with direct-injection relied on automatic ether injection and hyraulic pump destrokers.

Cold starting was a big issue at our Deere dealership because we had many logger customers with dozers and skidders sitting out in the woods - with no electricity and temps down to minus 35 F.
Many loggers would park their 350 or 450 dozers in creeks every night in water 2 feet deep. That kept the undercarriage from freezing solid and the engine a little warmer than the air - but made for some awful road-calls. Also no fun breaking the ice on top every morning to get the dozer out.

The reality was - in those cold temps - out in the woods - nothing started without help. Some of our customers installed propane or diesel fired block heaters and some used portable generators to run electric block heater.

One neat trick was using quick plug-in couplers to the cooling system. Many guys with pickup trucks would pull up to the jobsite - keep the truck engine running - and plug the truck cooling system into the one on the dozer or skidder. Then, the truck acted like a big pony motor and sent warm coolant over and got the engine warm enough to start.

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Mike (WA)

01-05-2008 07:55:34




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
We have a 2005 JD 4010- 18.5 HP compact utility. Great little rig, but not sure how good REALLY cold starting is going to be. It has a Yanmar engine, and an automatic glow plug when you turn on the ignition, that only stays on about one second (not exagerating here). Has always started OK, but haven't had to try in temps below 25. It is obnoxious when it starts- smokes, misses, shakes, etc.,- JD says that's the way they are made, and all act the same (which we verified on their lot, as well as the one second glow plug). Smooths out in less than 5 seconds, then runs great.

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KEH

01-05-2008 07:49:13




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  

Thanks for replies.

Steve, I think I saw where common rail systems went up to 29,000 psi. Good info on diesel development.

Allan, those ether systems must work good. Apparently, in real cold areas people have to use plug in heating systems for diesel and gas engines. Looked up your weather and we are about the same for today. Guess the Chinook arrived for you.

KEH



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Allan In NE

01-05-2008 07:56:23




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 07:49:13  
Yeah, I try not to start a diesel cold. Always wanna plug 'em in.

Nice part about the IH injectors is that the either is "measured", not just "dumped". :>)

Yes Sir, we finally got above freezing here for a change.

Allan



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Allan In NE

01-05-2008 07:32:22




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
Just a couple of pictures.

First is the Allis preheater and the second is the IH either injector.

Allan

third party image

third party image

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Steven f/AZ

01-05-2008 07:13:36




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 Re: diesel cold starting in reply to KEH, 01-05-2008 06:58:32  
On our 806, 1256, 1086 IH, 2590 Case, 8630 and 4450 John Deere all have ether as a start assist. Nice can holder under the hood and a button on the dash. Get the engine spinning over and give 'em a sniff and they always fire up. I'm not sure what the latest diesel tractors use.

Glow plugs, pony motors, and start on gas diesels were necessary because of a couple of things... 1.) They did not have enough compression when cranking to really ignite the diesel fuel. They were around 17:1 while newer diesels can be up to around 24:1 2.) Their injector pumps did not develop enough pressure when cranking to really atomize the fuel - also partly the fault of the injector design. Old injector systems were around 2500 to 3500 psi - new injector systems run near 25,000 psi on a common rail (maybe higher?).

The technology for building engine parts that hold up to the stress of high compression and high fuel pressures and also the accuracy of fuel injected is the reason the newer diesels start better, and run quieter.

I can tell you this much, my brother's 98 Cummins has the intake manifold heater system that kicks on when you turn the key on no matter what the temp is. It will start down to 35 below zero with no other assist.

His 06 Cummins won't even kick on the manifold heater until it's down around 5 above. I don't think he has plugged it in unless it gets below zero, and I doubt he has tried to start it unplugged at as low of a temp as the 98.

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