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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

another diesel fuel gelling question

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benjaminR

01-21-2008 18:26:47




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Hi folks. Thanks for the help over the weekend. Filled the tank with winter diesel, and added power service. I bought new fuel filters, found the shutoff in the little hole under the steering wheel ( thankyou!) and to my surprise the fuel was liquid in them. Changed them anyway, bled them, primed the little hand pump, started great. I let it warm up 45 minutes, sounded perfect for a 30 year old. I cleared some snow for a while and after 40 minutes of work, it started to stall again. Just barely got it back to the parking spot and it died. I tried to start it again, but no luck. It turns over and sure tries to start, but nope. Is it possible for the fuel to gel even after the motor is warm and running? ( It was only minus 20 today!) I have the block heater plugged in round the clock.
If it is gelled again, what are some tricks people use, keeping in mind It sits outside, and heaters are not a possibility right now.
Forecast is for -10 later this week, maybe that will help? Thanks everyone from a very new tractor owner. ( 1466 IH)

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trucker40

01-22-2008 14:37:47




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
You need straight number 1 at that kind of cold.Maybe even some additive in number 1,but I dont know what additive.Could be Power Service.



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trucker40

01-22-2008 14:37:39




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
You need straight number 1 at that kind of cold.Maybe even some additive in number 1,but I dont know what additive.Could be Power Service.



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benjaminR

01-22-2008 09:02:07




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
thanks everyone, it's a good start. But forgive me, I still have another question. I don't seem to have a choice of #1 or #2 diesel at the station, I buy what they have and they only called it winter diesel. Are the terms different in Canada? Where would one buy kerosene, and is it really safe to use?
btw, when I say -20 or -30, I mean celsius!!!!
Windchill factor makes it -40!!!!



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jason, NW Ontario

01-22-2008 12:08:16




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-22-2008 09:02:07  
Ben, where are you at? Thunder Bay is awful cold this week also, but the 7.3 diesel F-350 started with only 7 glow plugs. Canadian Tire has a special this week on Power Service diesel fuel supplement. The stuff works well. I'm on the highway quite a bit, and have not had problems with fuel gelling once you get going.
The diesel you'll find up here is all the same - no winter blends. Another help in ugly cold is a magnetic heater that you attach to the oil pan. Hope it helps.
jay

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Leland

01-22-2008 10:14:46




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-22-2008 09:02:07  
home heating oil is about the same as #1 fuel any bulk fuel supplier has it ,just mix it 50-50 or higher . Thinner fuel will causer just a little more fuel being burnt . And add more anti gel to tank.



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Leland

01-22-2008 08:28:07




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
If you really get desprate you can add a few gallons of gas to keep it running ,have done this before with out any problems .and insulate all fuel lines with foam pipe wrap and try covering filters this helps a lot as well .



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Lee in Iowa

01-22-2008 07:24:11




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
Something I have done when it wanted to gel was to heat the fuel filters very gently and very carefully with a small propane torch. Also to help prevent this you can cover part of the grill with cardboard or a feed sack, and if you don't have a cab, a heathouser on the tractor will help keep the fuel warm and make sure your thermostat is working. If you have a cab try covering the sides of the engine with canvas the same way a heat houser would. I used to run my loader tractor (856 with heat houser) all winter on no. 2 with power service. Lee

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Oldmax

01-22-2008 05:46:05




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
Don't worry about blending fuel for winter just use K-1 under 20 deg . My tractor manufactor recomends it . if worried about it just put some adtives in fuel & go with it .



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paul

01-21-2008 20:13:34




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
Your tank & filter & fuel line between may be far from any engine heat at all.

#2 diesel will start to drop out wax particals below 20 degrees, and below 5 degrees or so will put out a lot of these small, but filter plugging bits.

I suspect you again had fuel gelling.

Mixing in enough anti-gel, or mixing in enough kerosene/ jet fuel/ #1 diesel - will keep it running. The key is 'enough'. A little helps when the temps are at 10 degrees. Some is enouygh when it is zero. If you are looking at near minus 20 degrees, you need 50% or more of the #1 fuel blened in, or on the heavy side of what the anti-gel bottle recommends.

Your problem now is, the line & filter area again is full of gelled particles. You'll need to get it running to curculate your new mix, when you add more anti-gel.

It's best to take care of this before it gels, rather than after.

They do make products such as Power Service's 911 that should ungel a problem like yours, but realize it has to travel & mix through the fuel line on it's own, so this is not a perfect or quick process.....

My cab tractor, we put the plug-in tank water heater right below the fuel filter. This means warm antifreese is always right below the filter as the tractor runs, putting some heat into the filter. I have little gelling problems with that tractor. :)

My little compact diesel, gelled up once for me, when I managed to get it turned so the wind was not blowing on the filter side, but rather taking heat off the engine & blowing it over the filter side, it started running well again. Got it back to the shed & got more Power Service in it, let it warm up out of the wind some, and then it was good to go.

I wonder if you had gotten it set in the wind so the heat of the engine woulda gone across the filter if it woulda perked up? When it gets down to gelling, just a few degrees makes a big difference.

My furnace is fuel oil - basically #2 deisel. It will gell up too in these cod snaps. A bucket of hot water under the filter & a warm wet rag wrapped on the filter will get it running again, and let the additive mix and go through. There are more ways to get heat somewhere than with an electric cord..... ..

--->Paul

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JT

01-21-2008 19:51:11




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
My dad was a road commisioner running diesel trucks and graders. He always run 50/50 blend #2 and K1, with power serve, usually double what was recommended of power serve, never gelled up, and this was a matter of life & death, a gelled up snow plow truck out in country roads is not good.
Jim



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Richard L

01-21-2008 19:10:47




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
Having driven semi for almost 45 years it would depend on the company I worked for as to what I used in the winter and of course what temp. was between point a and b. Some companies didn't care so when it was really nasty cold I would put up to 10% gas in the tank then fill up with fuel. I was not going to freeze in a truck along side the road. I never gelled up when I used the gas in the tank.



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gots-2-go

01-21-2008 19:06:16




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
People around here add a couple gallons of K-1 Kerosene to their tanks in the winter. So far this winter we have not had temps below 10* (md). Not sure about adding it to a truck, the DOT guys will sometimes stick the trucks tank.



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36 coupe

01-26-2008 15:14:05




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to gots-2-go, 01-21-2008 19:06:16  
K1 kerosene is dyed red here.IRS has snoops in white cars stopping trucks here, checking tanks.Virginia stopped a lot of trucks and found 2% had red fuel in them.Not worth the dollars wasted on enforcement...



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C-man

01-21-2008 18:52:28




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
What do you mean by "winter fuel"? Even if it is a blend,part #1 and part #2, it can still "gell". 20-30 below with a little wind can cause a lot of problems. We have 2 tractors that we start every day in the winter. One has a loader on it, and the other has a bale processor behind it. We use STRAIGHT #1 fuel in the loader tractor starting before Thanksgiving and use it until the refueling tank is empty in the spring. We have NEVER gelled up a tractor. On the other hand, the tractor with the bale processor, we will put in a small amount of #2 and continue to watch the weather forecast. If it looks like it is going to get below Zero, we will put in some #1. The reason we use straight #1 in the loader is because we NEED that tractor to run every day, We can feed without the bale processor if we need to. We don't use the Power Service or Howes or whatever other kind of conditioner there is out there. If your fuel is an honest straight #1 you should have no problem with "gelling". I have heard of people gelling with a 50/50 blend and Power Service. Yes, #1 fuel is higher priced and you have less power, but you have NO power if you are gelled up and new filters are not cheap, not to mention the time wasted trying to get things started again. Just my opinion, and I'm sure somebody will tell me they NEVER use #1 and all they use is a conditioner and have never had a problem. That's OK, I'm telling you what we do, and it seems to work for us.

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2t2@ia

01-21-2008 19:30:26




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to C-man, 01-21-2008 18:52:28  
Sounds good. I always ran all #1 in the tractor that I needed in the winter and never had any gel problems.



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JTinNJ

01-21-2008 18:49:53




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
"Winter blend" may not be blended with anything. Get some K-1 Kerosene and make your owen winter blend.That way you know you really have winter blend.If you have room in the tank for 5 gal put 5 gal in there.More if you have the room.



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Bill(Wis)

01-21-2008 18:46:42




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
Minus 20F is the problem. Arctic diesel will probably work. Not to be confused with #1 diesel. Most folks call #1 diesel "winter diesel". Arctic is one step beyond that. Mills Fleet Farm sells it at their pumps.



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Bob

01-21-2008 19:31:26




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to Bill(Wis), 01-21-2008 18:46:42  
It gets as cold as -30ºF here, and I've never had ANYTHING give me any trouble with staight #1 diesel in it.



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davediehl@hotmail.com

01-21-2008 18:45:35




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to benjaminR, 01-21-2008 18:26:47  
Diesel tractors differ alot compared to carb models like I was used to in many ways. One would "think" that a warm engine passes the heat to the fuel. This is true to an extent on a carb, but not on a diesel. The thicker fuel retains its cold temps better than the thinner gas. Gas will vaporize as it flows, more so when it gets hot. The diesel engine does not get as warm as gas fueled engines. Plus, the lines to and from the injector pump are not heated. They typically are several inches from the block and don't warm up unless you have a hood blanket wrapped around the engine compartment. It does not suprise me at all with the temps you report, that the fuel is still gelling. I have heard of guys mixing kerosene and other additives in the winter. But, with -20 temps, its inevidible that you are not going too far. Just makes you wonder how many big trucks are sitting in the truck stops.

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JTinNJ

01-21-2008 18:59:58




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 Re: another diesel fuel gelling question in reply to davediehl@hotmail.com, 01-21-2008 18:45:35  
One reason the big trucks are able to run in these cold temps is that they have fuel heaters in the fuel tanks.Also they have return line from the injection pumps.I've been told that some Cat engines pump 90 gal of fuel an hour.It helps to cool the engine and that warm fuel is returned to the fuel tank.I beleive it.I drove gasoline tanker for 20 years.The first place I would go in the winter when droping a load of gas was to sit on the warm fuel tank.

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