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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question

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Billy NY

03-22-2008 08:39:12




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My friends dad, had the cylinder blow the bottom out on a log splitter he's had for 30 years. It did have a factory weld, but I think the metal was fatigued, I did not see it though, hard to say. He brought it to a stee fabricator we know for welding.

My question is, is something like this even worth welding up again, thinking the metal is fatigued, oil impregnated, and the pressures involved would'nt it be dangerous ? You hate to think that the bottom could blow off again, don't want to be in it's path. This bugs me as I don't want to see my friends dad get injured from something that is what like $100 to just replace ?

Appreciate your thoughts on this, as I'd like to to tell him if it is dangerous, before he gets the thing back in his yard, just get the darned replacement cylinder and be done with it.

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Hydraulic cylinders

03-22-2008 19:13:41




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Hydraulic cylinders are kind of an oddball. While technically they are a pressure vessel, they don't have to have a certified pressure welder to fabricate them. Some cylinders (2500 PSI)only use a snap ring to hold all the pressure. I applied for a job at a heavy equipment manufacturer to roll weld heavy duty cylinders with flux-core. I didn't get the job because I had my pressure ticket and they thought I would quit to go somewhere else for more money. It would have been a cushy job. A little boring but easy. How bad did it leak? Was it just a pin hole leak or did the whole end blow off? Was the cylinder at the end of its stroke with the valve still supplying pressure? Was the log too big or too hard for the splitter which caused more pressure? Did the relieve valve stick? It's hard to say without seeing it. I would say if done properly, welding it up shouldn't be a problem on the end cap. Take the cylinder apart before welding and thoroughly clean. Probably a simple job for an experienced welder. Would even bet that the cylinder could be stronger than new. Compare replacement cost to repairing cost.

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T_Bone

03-23-2008 01:22:53




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Hydraulic cylinders, 03-22-2008 19:13:41  
Come on Dave (135fan), while technically a pressure vessel??? If a piece of pipe running at 2000psi to 3000psi doesn't qualifiy as a pressure vessel, I don't what does.

As a AWS CWI(Certified Weld Inspector) you can be assured the machine weld process choosen is a certified weld process.

We were Tig machine welding high pressure pipe at Coors back in the late 60's. This automatic weld process is nothing new.

At $100 to $400 retail, $25 to $150 wholesale, for a new cylinder, I serriously doubt any company could compete and stay in business without a certified automatic welding process.

To recomend that a inexperienced welder tackle a high pressure weldment will surley get someone killed or hurt.

T_Bone

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T_Bone

03-22-2008 16:52:31




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Hi Billy,

Welding any high pressure vessel requires a great deal of skill level that most experienced professional welders do not have. This has to be a presure certified weld, period. There's both pre-welding and post-welding preperations and requires a "multi-weld process" that must done in order to assure a certified weldment is made.

Those are very detailed welding procedures and are beyond the scope of the internet.

That is based on fact the cylinder can be repaired. To do so would require a cost that greatly exceeds the cost of a new replacement cylinder. The old cylinder should be "cut" before discarding to stop someone else of trying to repair it.

First determine why the cylinder failed. Metal fatique? Very doubtful!!! The most common cause would be a malfuntion of the pressure relief valve or a missing pressure reilef vavle.

T_Bone

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Billy NY

03-24-2008 07:40:37




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to T_Bone, 03-22-2008 16:52:31  
I'm not sure, but it sounds like something like a relief valve would be a possibility. I'm of the opinion that metal fatigue was probably not the cause, however, after something like this fails, 2 issues that would concern me, is the remaining base metal fatigued ? Say the welder cleans up the edges, welds the bottom on again, but where the weldment penetrates the base metal or remaining part of the cylinder, was it weakened by the fact that it failed under pressure. The metal had to have stretched, he said the metal failed not the old factory weld. The steel fabrication shop, we have known for a long time, but having some knowledge on steel fab from being in construction, I would not think anyone in their shop would be qualified to do pressure vessel welding, I've had fitters on one job that were qualified to weld in refineries, doing 20" butt welded dual temp pipe lines for buildings, so what you mention about procedure and being an AWS instructor would make it clear, and very simple, just replace the thing, and check the pressures on the system, install a new pressure relief valve etc. Personally, I would not be comfortable around something like that after being repaired.

In one respect it is really none of my business, his son mentioned this to me, and I would hate to see someone injured or killed by a repair that should never have been done, he stated that the bottom of the cylinder literally blew off and went flying.

I'll pass along the information, and do appreciate everyones advice here as always, thanks !

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buickanddeere

03-22-2008 10:39:53




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
As pp have stated.A new hydraulic ram will cost less than the labour to properly repair and old pelter. It will be do for a seal replacement a$ well. New rams can be had in 3000psi and higher ratings. Increasing the ram size will improve splitting power IF the rest of the splitter is up to the added stress.



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bill mart

03-22-2008 15:30:18




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to buickanddeere, 03-22-2008 10:39:53  
will increasing the ram size slow the cycle time?



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Gerald J.

03-22-2008 15:41:21




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to bill mart, 03-22-2008 15:30:18  
Increasing the cylinder bore will slow the cycle time, but increase the force at the wedge for any given hydraulic pressure. Its a trade off of speed vs crunch power. That's why two stage pumps were invented to run high flow with low pressure until contact, then low flow with high pressure to split. High flow to return.

Gerald J.



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Walt davies

03-22-2008 09:45:38




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Like the others have said get that system pressure checked by competent person who has the proper equipment. The only time a cylinder blows like that is when the pressure has been adjusted way up, it only take a half turn on that little relief valve to go from 2500 PSI to 5000 PSI. No manufacture will make a cylinder that will not take more the rated pressure they wouldn't stay in business very long.
One thing I can't stress enough is that adjusting the relief valve is no job for the inexperienced.
Walt

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Walt davies

03-22-2008 09:44:11




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Like the others have said get that system pressure checked by competent person who has the proper equipment. The only time a cylinder blows like that is when the pressure has been adjusted way up, it only take a half turn on that little relief valve to go from 2500 PSI to 5000 PSI. No manufacture will make a cylinder that will not take more the rated pressure they wouldn't stay in business very long.
Walt

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fixerupper

03-22-2008 09:41:34




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Is it a homemade splitter? How old is the cylinder? If the cylinder is real old, like fifty years or so, it might not be built for modern pressures. Just a thought.

I put a green Deere cylinder,made for a 2 banger with a 1200 PSI system, on a modern tractor once and the side blew out of the cylinder. Jim



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Gun guru

03-22-2008 09:35:16




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Check relief valve pressure (may be too high) check alignment of the ram to the v-block pusher. I supposed you could reweld it IF it is just the weld that is broke. You may be able to rebuild the cylinder with a new tube. Is it a tie rod end cylinder? or a welded end tube type? If you do buy a new cylinder get an American made one, they cost more but better steel and better workmanship. A place in the Detroit area called AMDynic fluid power sells and repairs big cylinders.

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dlplost

03-22-2008 09:28:45




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
I'd be looking at the relief valve. Some people have a habit of jacking the pressure up when they hit knotty wood. You can only put 3,000 psi on a 2250psi cylinder so many times and it's gonna blow. And NO, it's not worth welding, it WILL just come apart again...Get a new cylinder.



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Circus

03-22-2008 09:00:16




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Find the cause of the breakage. If the cyl was fully extended the piston broke out the end. This would also happen to the replacement. Check for a relief valve.



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Billy NY

03-22-2008 09:43:50




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Circus, 03-22-2008 09:00:16  
I think it was the bottom end, not the cylinder end, but I will pass on everyones advice, especially the relief valve part, I know things kind of need to match pump gpm's, pressure and cylinder, and this is what can happen if the pressure goes beyond unchecked.

Hopefully they will get a new cylinder, seems to risky to me



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Dick L

03-22-2008 08:57:38




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Hydraulic oil compressed is not the same as air compressed. Oil does not really compress. Once the cylinder brakes the only volume and pressure that comes out is the volume of the oil pump. Not all that dangerous. I have had my share of oil baths over the years which is no fun.
I still would not have it welded.



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ericlb

03-22-2008 08:50:18




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
if it were mine i would replace the cylinder, northern and others have them from about a hundred bucks up to 500 or so it depends on the size of the cylinder, if his is 30 years old its about ready to be rebuilt if it hasnt ben already plus unless the fab shop is able to perform a pressure test on the repair nobody knows if the weld is up to the hydralic pressure that will be applied to it



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Janicholson

03-22-2008 08:47:58




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
I think two items are related:
If it is welded correctly, with a V groove of the joint, and proper rod, it will likely be stronger than it was.
If the system breaks, it is at least not a life dependant item. Most hydraulic failures on a splitter just cause it to spurt oil, and stop. Though there are possible dangerous consequences.
High pressure leaks through pin holes aree dangerous due to the leak forcing oil into skin (very bad, but un likely if known about, and avoided)
The only other item to be certain about is the pressure relief on the pump. extreme pressure will destroy things. JimN

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Gerald J.

03-22-2008 08:45:31




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 Re: O.T. Hydraulic Cylinder Safety Question in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2008 08:39:12  
Probably safest to get a new cylinder, but better check the pressure relief valve function to be certain the system pressure stays in the range the cylinder can handle.

Gerald J.



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